Divorce and Refinancing a Mortgage

Hi, welcome to ValuationPodcast.com, a podcast and video series about all things related to business and valuation. My name is Melissa Gragg, and I'm a mediator and business valuation expert in St. Louis, Missouri.

Today we are talking about divorce and refinancing a mortgage, and I have the privilege of speaking with Emile Flowers. She's a Certified Divorce Lending Professional and Mortgage Loan Originator located in Glen Carbon, Illinois, but services clients around the country. Welcome, Emile!

1. Divorce and Mortgaging a House: One Working Spouse and One Stay-Home Spouse with Emile Flowers
2. What is a Certified Divorce Lending Professional?
3. What type of analyses are you doing with the client to determine their eligibility?
4. How does divorce mortgage planning benefit the couple?
5. What is "qualifying income?"
6. Why is the verbiage for the divorce settlement agreement important?
7. What is important to know about refinancing a mortgage in a divorce?
8. What can clients do now to get prepared to meet with Emile Flowers?
9. How do you charge for your services?
10. About Emile Flowers, Certified Divorce Lending Professional and Mortgage Loan Originator

Melissa Gragg CVA, MAFF, CDFA
Expert testimony for financial and valuation issues
Bridge Valuation Partners, LLC
melissa@bridgevaluation.com
http://www.BridgeValuation.com
http://www.ValuationPodcast.com
http://www.MediatorPodcast.com
https://www.valuationmediation.com
Cell: (314) 541-8163

Emile Flowers​​​​, CDLP® \ Mortgage Loan Originator USA Mortgage
eflowers@usa-mortgage.com
+1 618-530-2444
3 Country Club Executive Park, Ste 100
Glen Carbon, IL 62034
NMLS: 1256327
Company NMLS: 227262. Not a commitment to lend. Additional terms and conditions apply. DAS Acquisition Company, LLC is not affiliated with or endorsed by any government entity or agency, including USDA, HUD or VA. Headquarters: 12140 Woodcrest Executive Drive, Suite 150, St. Louis, Missouri 63141, Toll Free: (888) 250-6522. For complete licensing information visit http://www.nmlsconsumeraccess.org. USA Mortgage does not provide tax, legal or accounting advice or services. This material has been prepared for informational purposes only, and is not intended to provide, and should not be relied on or used as a substitute for, tax, legal or accounting advice. You should consult your own tax, legal and accounting advisors before engaging in any transaction.

Melissa (00:00):

Hi, welcome to ValuationPodcast.com, a podcast and video series about all things related to business and valuation. My name is Melissa Gragg, and I'm a mediator and business valuation expert in St. Louis, Missouri. Today we are talking about divorce and refinancing a mortgage, and I have the privilege of speaking with Emile Flowers. She's a certified divorce lending professional and mortgage loan originator located in Glen Carbon, Illinois, but services clients around the country. Welcome, Emile. How are you?

Emile (00:36):

I am great Melissa. Thank you for having me.

Melissa (00:39):

This is gonna be such a delight. So we actually kind of met fairly recently and I want to give the audience, cuz I, I kind of know we have a lot of couples out there, a lot of family lawyers and a lot of people in general that experience divorce. Right? Absolutely. And this scenario, I wanna give our audience a scenario because I think what you do is so unique that I have to give them a little bit of a taste of it. So a lot of times in divorce, what we are seeing currently is one working spouse and one stay-at-home spouse, or maybe a part-time worker, a gig worker, you know, small, maybe two people have small businesses or, or one spouse is, is not wage earning the same as the other. Okay. May have a different credit score, may have different earning capacity may have been out of the workforce for a tremendous amount of time.

Melissa (01:40):

And, and when we go through divorce and they have the one marital home, they're trying to figure out who can keep it. Sometimes that spouse that's stay at home or not earning as much wages is also taking care of the kids or the family or wants to stay in that marital house. And I think that what happens is this couple doesn't know what to do. Right. And we're like, can we get a mortgage? Can, can I get a mortgage? Or if you are the spouse that's not working, you're sitting back and saying, can I stay in this house? Can I, can I afford this? What can I do? Enter Emile Flowers. So Emile, tell us how you kind of come into this situation and can somebody figure out how to mortgage it if they're not the main spouse?

Emile (02:31):

They can. They, they absolutely can. So when we're working with couples, especially when it's a little one-sided, I guess is, is how we would put that and, and don't knock it. I mean, I stayed at home for a long time too, so I get it. And I've been there, but here we are. Right? Right. So when we're working with, with that particular spouse there's lots of ways to create income, qualified income for obtaining financing for a refinance and, and what have you. So it, it's not something that they should be scared of, but it is something that we're gonna work through together and we're going to talk realistically about what that looks like before, during, and after. Right. So,

Melissa (03:27):

Right. And, and I think that interestingly enough, it is a conversation. So a lot of times people will hesitate to make a move on getting divorced or talking about getting divorced, even when both spouses are clearly like done with the situation because they fear that one of them can or cannot stay in the house. They can't figure it out cuz they can't just, you know, and, and right now we have a mortgage industry that we might even look back and say, well, we were just refinanced a few years ago and I love that rate and I don't wanna get rid of that rate. You know, so when we start talking about these things, this is where I see a certified divorce lending professional come in. But people don't know what this is. They don't know that it exists. It's not a broker, it's not your real estate agent. It's not, they're not gonna go find you a house, although maybe they could. But tell us more about this certificate and what you did to get it, because this is important of how you help people figure out that refinance, right?

Emile (04:36):

Absolutely. So what I did was I sought out the Divorce Lending Association, which is whom I have my certification through. And I took, I actually went to Atlanta to obtain it. It was very important for me not to do it online mm-hmm. <Affirmative> because it holds up better in a court of law because I can actually testify. So I wanted to make sure that I obtained it in person and it was like a three day certification course and I had to take a test and everything. I have to also complete continuing education every year on it. And I'm one of the few that I see on the calls once or twice a week where we're continuing to learn different strategies to help divorcing clients understand and evaluate the options of obtaining current and future mortgage financing when divorce is present. Mm-Hmm. That is what I do. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And so when, when, when you've got somebody I, you, I can put as many initials behind my name as I want to, but if I'm not really living and breathing that every day, that's when we kind of go wrong. And I, and I am literally every week all the time, this is what I do, divorce, mortgage planning every day.

Melissa (06:05):

Well, and, and I have seen with the advancement of mediation with couples starting to take control of their divorce and say, you know what, we might get along a little bit. We might not wanna be together forever, but we at least care about the security of each other going forward. And it could be also based on co-parenting, right? Keeping the kids in a certain house maintaining some stability for the family. But when, when you see these people kind of going through this situation, they are not, they, they don't even understand. It's sort of like, I just assume I can't get the loan. Right. I assume. And what we have is maybe one spouse that maybe couldn't qualify under a normal loan, but you have two people that really want to create a supportive environment, but the other person doesn't wanna stay on the mortgage. You know, like they don't want to have that liability. So I think where I had seen a tremendous value of your services is in those mediations, you're coming in at the beginning and you're doing like this financial analysis, which is very different than a lot of people that I've seen. But what type of analyses are you doing with the client to even start to understand their eligibility, to understand if this is a possibility to, cuz to be clear, you're not guaranteeing anything you're saying given your search situation. Is this possible? Right.

Emile (07:40):

Absolutely. So what we're doing is I have a very specific worksheet that I work through with all of my couples and clients. And we start talking about the current marital home and what the expenses are associated with that and how the guidelines affect, you know, what is going to happen with that. That's one thing. And then the next thing we start working on is joint and individual debt, who's going to be assigned to it. We start talking about support income and the forms in which that comes in and the guidelines that go along with that. Because there's mortgage guidelines that go with every single thing that you're working through in a divorce. And that's unknown cuz nobody knows that side of it. We also talk about the income and then once we kind of go through that process, we start talking about, okay here's what financing looks like.

Emile (08:40):

Here's what financing looks like. If you need to buy equity out for your spouse, here's what a purchase looks like. Here's what this looks like. And you're right, people are scared of this environment and this climate because they've, you know, they're probably sitting at a two or 3% interest rate and they don't wanna refinance because the payment is higher and things like that. But it's a 30 year mortgage to spread out the payments. You can refinance it later when the rates come back down. So it's nothing to be scared of, but it's definitely something that we are, we are working through. You can share it with your attorneys to make sure that you see how much support you're going to need to accomplish your goals.

Melissa (09:28):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> Well and support is typically either maintenance or it's called alimony. It could also include child support payments. So there could be a lot of ways to look at the support. I think the, one of the things that was interesting in, in what you were saying is that they, there could be a lot of different options. So it's not just to refinance the mortgage, it could be to buy the other person out. Maybe you have a small, maybe you have an equity line, maybe you have a lot of different things going on and you come in. Now what I think from being literally a financial mediator and dealing with a couple's full financial picture, if the house is the biggest issue, right? If the, the one house is the biggest issue, it's almost like my opinion is that talking to you and figuring out how to secure that house in some capacity, which means what assets or debts have to go on each side, is pretty important because then we have to go from there and say, okay, now what can we do?

Melissa (10:42):

Right? Because if I get started on my work and I do this, this is a perfect scenario and you come in and you say, Ooh, that's not gonna work for the house. We have to redo everything. And so in some capacity, I'm really encouraging people that if that house is the biggest deal in your divorce, which in most divorces it is the primary asset, it's the largest asset that people really need to figure out what to do with it. So another thing that you talk about is this divorce mortgage planning. And so how does divorce mortgage planning benefit the couple? Because you can be hired by one person or you could be hired by the couple and and quite frankly, if people are doing this, they would, I mean, this would be beneficial and if you're doing mediation, doing it as a couple. Makes sense. So what is some of the benefits of working with a couple or kind of being on the same page about this going forward?

Emile (11:44):

So the benefit is so I have an individual license and therefore with my individual license, confidentiality is key, right? Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. So when we're working with clients, let's say we have one spouse who is going to retain the marital home and they're gonna refinance it, and we have an exiting spouse who's going to purchase. Quick answer is this, the retaining spouse is going to most likely give the exiting spouse half of the equity in most cases. That's what I see negotiated. Typically, you're gonna need that for the down payment of the purchase. So if I'm working with both, you know, the couple together, it's one set of paperwork, but two separate discussions that are not shared with each other. So that paperwork you filed jointly forever, you are, you know, you're going to turn in W two s and bank statements that are joint and you're gonna turn in taxes that have been filed together and you're gonna turn in all this stuff. I also am able to control the closings and all of that and line everything up so that the money gets there for the purchase. And the mon, you know, all of these things happen in accordance a with the, with the divorce settlement agreement and with the contracts that are happening on either side.

Melissa (13:18):

Well, and one of the big things that when we were talking about this, that I think you know, in a divorce, in any state, you're gonna typically do some analysis for income. And that income is the basis for paying maintenance or child support or alimony. It's also the basis for kind of making sure that each party has, you know, equivalent cash flow. But in the mortgage world, we're talking about qualifying income mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And so I think that when people get divorced, they think that these terms are very complicated and everybody knows what we're talking about except for them when quite frankly, these terms are used differently among different industries. So income for me means something very different for you for what is qualifying income. Do you wanna talk a little bit about what that means in the mortgage land?

Emile (14:17):

Sure. Qualifying income is income. We can actually give them credit for according to the guidelines of Fannie Freddy or whoever. Right? So when we're talking about qualifying income, let's say you are a person who has a base salary and you also have commission, but you've only been on your job a year. Well, if you didn't have base salary and commission from your previous job and you've switched jobs or whatever, we can only count your base salary. So what your paychecks say and what we can actually count can be very different, which is going to affect your eligibility to refinance or purchase. And it's also going to possibly affect the amount of support you're going to be asking for a needing, et cetera, or how that support is structured. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, whether it's a monthly payment or if we're dealing with maybe a lump sum from somewhere that we can generate distributions from. So there's, there's a huge difference between what I can count as income versus what you think you make.

Melissa (15:40):

Well, and I think that part of that goes into some of the, some of the ways to deal with this qualifying income or to move income from one spouse to the other is through maintenance. It is through the payment of alimony or some sort of cash payment for child support, for alimony, for things like that. But you get it, you get a little bit deeper into this, and this is like, we're just gonna touch on it just a tad bit, but this is, this is the secret sauce of Emile is that she understands it's, it's not about doing the analysis, making sure you're eligible, okay, we got the income. Okay, hypothetically, you know, like this isn't a pre-approval letter, right? This is a, can you finance this? Can you find a lender that's going to finance it under this, these guidelines, right? So, you know, the guidelines and then how do we put it into the divorce decree because you might refinance it after the divorce. So what is some of the verbiage for the divorce settlement agreement and why is it important? Because it does become important because of what I just said. Sometimes you're gonna refinance it after you get divorced. So talk a little bit about how you help family lawyers come in and have that protection in the agreements so that you can get refinanced when you're done.

Emile (17:12):

Sure. and, and the, in the investors and, and you know, the guidelines are very specific. And as far as a lender is concerned, like me, you're going to, you, you have to follow these things. It's, it's, it can be very black and white and then there's shades of gray, right? Mm-Hmm. And then they all change when divorce is present. So it's like if some of this stuff gets thrown out the window, however, when it comes to working with, you know family law attorneys and divorce attorneys and things like that, that divorce settlement agreement the, the wording in the mortgage section and then sometimes the support section can get really tricky because if we're not including in the mortgage section taxes insurance, h o a, all of that stuff, and we're not specifically stating the spouse is going to be responsible for that from a certain date, you know, all of this stuff, then we can't remove that liability for the exiting spouse.

Emile (18:20):

And they're, they're obligated still. And they can't purchase when they wanna purchase the exiting spouse can't. And then we're also talking about, you know, in, in most cases you can interchange alimony and maintenance and things like that, but in some, on some loan programs, they don't like it, they don't like the word maintenance. So you, we really need to see what they qualify for. So we can help you structure the verbiage correctly so that Fannie and Freddie and, and the everybody says, oh, okay, we can do that. You know, and, and you're gonna be good because otherwise you're stuck Once that divorce decree is written and they say, you have six months to refinance and you haven't done this process to make sure that all the things are in place, the, the verbiage is in place, your finances, financing is in place, et cetera, you could be in contempt of court and that's the last place you wanna be. Right? Is that a disadvantage? So let's put your, let's put you in, you know, the, the advantage.

Melissa (19:32):

Well, and I think it's also important because there's another scenario that I see very often, and it could just be because right now real estate is hot, Airbnbs are hot, you know people with such low mortgages, there were so many or low interest rates, a lot of investors got into it, right? So I see people that have, you know, if they don't have one house, they may have a portfolio of houses, they may have investment properties. And I have a current situation where they have several properties and maybe one spouse is clearly going to stay in the marital home, but they need to buy another house, right? And they need to figure out where the money's gonna come from. Is it fair? Who's splitting what, and they wanna do it in the middle of a divorce, right? But they don't know they, people just wanna do things when they wanna do things.

Melissa (20:32):

And so I think, what is it important for us to know about refinancing a mortgage and a divorce? And I will say, my only thought is that transparency is key. So the more like a couple works with you, like if that is the issue, like if your situation is not quite simple, right? Like, oh, it's got a little bit of stickiness to it, that is exactly when you have to kind of figure out, because there could be a way you could do things in the divorce mm-hmm. <Affirmative> if, if the income is right or waiting. So you can really help them figure out economically what's the best time. And you also talked about planning for the stages because one person has to get the money before they can buy something, before the other person can then get the money to buy. You know? So that process, what else should we know about refinancing a mortgage with you know, during or after the divorce that you think are just kind of big issues?

Emile (21:37):

During divorce, it's sort of the, the release of financial obligation, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So if, if you're going to be obtaining a new mortgage or purchasing another house or doing whatever it is that you're going to be doing sometimes during divorce, you're going to need to have the spouse kind of sign off on their marital right to the property. Cuz otherwise it's then, you know, done as a, as a marital home and then retitling afterwards because you're going to be titling, titling is a huge issue by the way, huge issue. And clouded title, huge issue that people don't think about and divorce and we handle all that as well. But you're gonna be titling as a marital, like as a married spouse and later you're gonna wanna make sure that you're not titled as a married spouse. So you, you may be redoing things as you go along, which it is what it is.

Emile (22:38):

If, if you need to refinance and you need to get them, you know, get settled in a, in a space, sometimes you need attorney letters. And those are tricky. You know, sometimes you're gonna need different things and it really, it, I know that I don't think there's any divorce that doesn't have sticky issues, right? I I think everybody's very much an individual in their scenario, in their situation. And we are literally going to work with that very individual need and address each thing specifically for, for that person or that couple. It, it, it's not a one size fits all. My, my job, nothing about my job is one size fits all. It's, it's extremely specific.

Melissa (23:30):

Yeah. And I think that that's the part of the benefit in, in working with somebody like you is that you are understanding how divorce works, how refinancing, how titling, all of those types of things. Because I think people want to do whatever they wanna do and get comfortable or get resituated or but it, it not always is the best timing. You know, there may be stages to it or ways that you can deal with it. And it could be financially related or it could be the market related, it could be a lot of things. But in general, just so that people out there understand for most states, and it is state specific, if you look at most states when you have you know, these assets and this income in, in most situations when you're going through a divorce making huge changes, selling assets, buying assets, selling businesses, buying businesses, selling houses, cars, anything is typically kind of a no-no.

Melissa (24:40):

And so it's not necessarily prohibited, although in some states it is prohibited. It is that you need to be mindful of the fact that you are engaging in activity that is one-sided. And you know, in this situation, if there's gonna be one-sided activity, which is somebody goes and buys a house and they need to take marital money in order to put the down payment, a discussion around that or even agreements and saying, okay, we're gonna do this, but then we're gonna do this and then we're gonna do this after the marriage is you know, after the divorce is final is very, very important. So if somebody, again, stickiness I think just means you don't have this perfect, the perfect scenario is you have one house and you both wanna sell it and you're just gonna take the money. Perfect scenario, right? Seems really easy, but almost never is.

Melissa (25:38):

That's a situation cuz you're talking about places people live in, places that they love. So if they don't know if there's options, cuz I think that's where most people sit. They either like, I know I can go get a loan. Like when you talk to people like I have great credit, I can go get a loan. And then other people are like, I have no clue, right? So if you're in the, I don't know, or we wanna do something, but we wanna make sure that we're following the rules and the guidelines, what could you do? Now I think they should meet with you, but what would they do to get prepared to meet with you? What kind of other documents should they collect? Because you're doing some financial analysis, but like what, what, what, what do they need to get together now so that they're prepared to have these discussions?

Emile (26:26):

Great question. Getting prepared is, let's look at the current property, right? Let's look at the current mortgage statement, your in insurance deck page, your tax bill. Do you have a home equity line of credit or some sort of secondary financing that we need to to deal with cuz that gets dealt with differently than, you know, just your primary mortgage. That's one thing. So we're gonna cover all of those things and kind of get that worked out. We we're also gonna wanna know how are we going to evaluate the, the property's worth? Okay. Because there's different ways to do that. And there's there's specific, like let's say you're gonna do an appraisal. Well, there's a very specific appraisal that holds up in a court of law. It's not the one that I use, right? So we, we need to make sure that we're aware of what the house is worth and we ha you, you're gonna have to go back to the drawing board several times on that because, and that's another thing with the divorce decree, you can't put a an amount in there if we don't know what the amount is.

Emile (27:45):

And then the next things that I would be asking for is what, what are the individual and the joint debts? And do we have statements for those debts so we know exactly how much is owed, who's gonna be responsible, what the monthly payment is, all of those things. Has there been court ordered, child support of any kind? Temporary orders are not. Let's talk about that. Your actual income. Let's, let's look at pay stubs, let's look at W two s, let's look at some of that stuff and let's get this all on that sheet and then we'll start talking about the possibilities mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, and we'll start spitting out some numbers and seeing if you're comfortable and, and if you're going to need extra support and all of these things and how they spiral together.

Melissa (28:36):

Well, and I think that this is why working with the financial neutral, working with the attorneys, working as part of the team, there's like pieces that you provide that really do change how the settlement looks, right? Because again, if the house is your primary asset, and we gotta figure out what to do with that first, I think that you are splitting up everything else prematurely, right? We gotta figure out what's going because some part of how you are able to get a spouse that hasn't been working able to get into a house is based on maintenance or alimony, you know, it's based on a payment from one spouse to the other. And so that conversation is a hard discussion to have as well. You know, so it's, it's engaging in instead of the fear base of like, I don't know if this is gonna work. Instead start to get team members around you that will help you knowledgeably make decisions that are financially sound right. Now, interestingly enough, I want to lead this as kind of the final thing. And I think that it's important because the analyses that you're doing is very sophisticated and you share your spreadsheets with people, even me, another professional in this world and other people, tons of people, right? But how are you getting compensated for your services and what is important when somebody is working with you?

Emile (30:16):

So marriage is a protected class under iko and I am not able to charge my divorcing clients for this consultation that I'm doing with them any consultation because I do not charge my traditional clients for their consultations. I'm not allowed to do that. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So we want to make sure that they realize that when we're doing this, we're we're putting this all together for them, that they can share with their business valuation specialists like Melissa Gregg, and they're sharing it with their financial planners, their C dfas and their family law attorneys and stuff so that they, they can use this almost as a negotiating tool if they need to, or just a practical, here's here's what I'm able to do. And so it's important to know that how I get paid is when I complete the refinance and or purchase. And, and I get paid in my traditional way where yeah. The, you know, secondary market pays me so that that's how I get paid. And this is just a very much added value and a very specific way to do things that you're not gonna find very often in very many places.

Melissa (31:55):

Well, and I bring it up because when I have been talking to people to refer Emile in, I have been very specific in that, you know, one of the ways that she is compensated is on completing the mortgage process. Like this process is to analyze whether you would get a mortgage and to get you into the mortgage. Not a hypothetical. Like, oh, good luck. Good luck in the future. And so that's the compensation. So her initial, so I always encourage people if you're gonna work with her and then you determine that this is the best process that you continue with her in the refinance after, after I'm gone from the situation. But, you know, Emile is a valuable resource to family law attorneys and their clients because it's not just the financial strategies, but it's also helping couples successfully separate from the mortgage. So it could be during the marriage, it could be after the marriage, but also in some of those planning stages for the divorce process, you can have a better outcome with the real estate and the mortgage financing if you start to work with somebody that has some of these credentials.

Melissa (33:07):

Now. Yes. Are there people like this around the country? Sure. Do other people have credentials? Sure. But working with somebody who has a depth of knowledge in divorce, this is a nuance, like what I do, evaluation is nuanced in divorce. What she does in mortgage lending is a nuanced in divorce. And so again, it's an amazing resource if this is something that you really need in your situation or if you don't know if it's possible, I think that's the bigger piece, right? Yeah. Like they don't know it's possible. And it is, it really is. And I'm, I didn't know even that that was possible. So tell us more about Emile and your beautiful name, because like, who doesn't love Emile Flowers? And tell us more about, you know, kind of your background and what you do in addition to divorce.

Emile (34:01):

Well, I, I lucked out on the name <laugh>. I ma I'm married into it pretty well, right. So I'm, I'm happy about that. I, I do live in Glen car, or Glen Carbon Edwardsville, Illinois which is about nine miles outside the city of St. Louis, by the way, <laugh>. So

Melissa (34:20):

I'm not, not far

Emile (34:21):

<Laugh>, I'm not Chicago. I'm, I'm near St. Louis. but I can work from anywhere and can figure out how to work with just about anyone. And so I work for a company called USA Mortgage, which is actually a St. Louis based company. And I have a team. My my husband is the manager here and he's been in the business about 29 years. I've been in the business eight years and I've been a C D L P for a little over three years now. And we also have another business partner. His name is Rob Schaw and he is our operations manager. And I made sure that he got his C D L P because he's the one that does the nuts and bolts of everything and makes sure that we can, that he snips that guideline for that underwriter that's being sticky and that he, you know, that he does those things.

Emile (35:20):

And so he's kind of my, my magic when it comes to us discussing clients together. So I love, I love that part of it mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and we also have additional people on our team that are, that are wonderful. So yeah, I, you can contact me. I, I ha I actually have a certif certification of mediation. I do not mediate. It does help me to understand the process though. And it does help me work with clients so much easier and, and, and more efficiently too, right. Which I love. But my certification is through the Divorce Lending Association. And I have to give a shout out to Jody Bruns cuz she's amazing. And she's the one who educates us and, and keeps our keeps our certification just in the forefront of our minds. So, but yeah, contact me and any of these platforms or, or email me and I'd be happy to see if I can help in any way. Well,

Melissa (36:31):

And I think one thing that I will say is one of the differences of what I do and what Emile does is that if I come in, I'm gonna give you a hypothetical and I'm gonna say you keep the house and you don't keep the house. I don't, maybe I care about expenses, maybe not. Depends on the case. Maybe I know whether they can get a loan or not. Maybe it doesn't matter to me. So I'm just creating hypotheticals, right? Oh, and we're just moving it, moving it to one bucket or the other. Oh, you wanna keep the house? Okay, great. Can you keep the mortgage? Well, I don't know. Okay, well we'll put it in your column for now, right? Yeah. That's the discussion. So I want to tell you that even if you are involved with a financial pro professional, as a financial professional doing heavy divorce work and mediation, I still don't have the capability to follow through with the hypothetical, right?

Melissa (37:31):

I don't have the capability to take you, oh, you're gonna keep the house, but we're gonna refinance the mortgage and you're gonna have da, da da da. I can put that on a spreadsheet. I don't have the capability of walking you through that process, getting you that loan, making sure that we paid attention to all the guidelines and got the qualifying income. But Emile can, and that's gonna be pretty important because when I leave the divorce, like you go in, we go to trial, you never see me again. You now have to do all of those things that we discussed and to have somebody walk you through, especially in the mortgage land, like you really do become pretty good friends with your mortgage person through the process because it gets, you know, like it's a process. So I think that's the benefit of, of even if you think, even if you are a financial planner or you're an attorney and you're like, I know everything about mortgage, there are, we cannot follow through with it. And I would encourage somebody to work with somebody who can follow you through that path or else you're just getting information that may or may not actually work in the real world. So that's why I like Emile, but Emile, if you have any other tips or tricks or whatever you wanna tell us, that would be great. <Laugh>,

Emile (38:50):

You know, I, I think really what, what my job is, is to break down what you want to do, which I completely understand, and then show you what you can do. Mm-Hmm. And those two might line up and they might not mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, but let's, let's look realistically at what this is gonna look like after the fact mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, because we're, we're not in the same realm anymore. There's not two incomes and we're, you know, doing our thing and all this stuff, there we're, we've got a cash flow problem now, right? And we really need to address what that's gonna look like and be realistic. And I understand that the home is a very emotional asset, right? But we need to just determine how we can move forward Yeah. And what that's gonna look like in a, in a very, very realistic way.

Melissa (39:47):

Yeah. I think, I think realistically knowing if you can financially do something is more important and gives you more security than to talk about possibilities that you know, in your heart, you cannot come with a, a solution, right? Yeah. You're just sitting there being like, well, I hope I could get a mortgage. That's not really the way to negotiate through your divorce. It's really to understand. So whether you work with her separately or together, you know, I think is, is your decision. But I encourage you to at least get some of that advice or reach out to somebody around, Emile can work around the country. So I'm just saying if you'll like her, you don't have to look further, but know that there are people around the country that are helping others with this piece. And it is not a traditional thing. It's not a tradit, you know, like I have a lot of credentials.

Melissa (40:39):

This still is a very nuanced space. So I think you have to be mindful of that, you know, your, your advice, where you get your advice from is gonna be pretty important if that's your largest asset. So I appreciate all of your information, Emile, and I think we will probably have you back on to talk more specifically because if we've gotten any divorce attorneys interested in the nuances of the settlement agreement, we'll come back. Don't worry. We got you. We'll come back and talk a little bit more about that. But this is really for couples and I think it's a, it's a needed service in divorce and I'm so grateful that I've met Emile. So thank you and we hope to have you back.

Emile (41:26):

Thank you, Melissa. I completely appreciate being on here. I have totally enjoyed getting to know you. You're such a dynamic wonder and I, I can't wait to be back on if, if you'll have me. Of course, of

Melissa (41:41):

Course. Well, thank you Emile, and we will see you soon.

Speaker 3 (41:44):

Thanks.