Divorce exEXPERTS - Resources for Divorcing Couples

Hi Welcome to ValuationPodcast.com - A podcast and video series about all things related to business and valuation. My name is Melissa Gragg, and I provide online divorce mediation and valuation services in St. Louis Missouri.

We are speaking with T.H. Irwin and Jessica Klingbaum, the “exEXPERTS”, about advice and resources for divorcing couples. They are divorce mentors and their mission is to educate, empower and support people to make the best decisions for their outcomes. Welcome TH and Jessica!

1. Tell us about you about how exEXPERTS started.
2. How did you know your marriage wasn’t working?
3. What did you do to get prepared to leave the marriage?
4. How did you have the discussion with your spouse about wanting to get divorced?
5. What were the biggest lessons you learned from your divorce?
6. How did those lessons help you create the business you have now?
7. What advice would you give someone going through a divorce?

Melissa Gragg CVA, MAFF
Expert testimony for financial and valuation issues
Bridge Valuation Partners, LLC
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See transcript below:

Melissa (00:00:00):

Hi, welcome to valuation podcast.com, a podcast and video series about all things related to business and valuation. My name is Melissa Gragg and I provide online divorce, mediation, and valuation services in St. Louis, Missouri. We're speaking today with T.H. Irwin and Jessica Klingbaum, the exEXPERTS about advice and resources for divorcing couples, their divorce mentors, and their mission is to educate, empower, and support people to make the best decisions for their outcomes. Welcome, T.H. and Jessica, how are you?

Jessica (00:00:32):

Thank you so much for having us today.

T.H. (00:00:34):

We are great. So happy to be here with you.

Melissa (00:00:37):

This is amazing. So, I was actually on your podcast talking about divorce and other types of issues, and you have some resources and have been working with couples for quite a long time. And so I wanted to bring you on the show because I think one of the things, people always have questions about finances, but at the beginning they kind of have more questions about what is this process like? How do I do it? Is it right for me? Is divorce my option? You know, like, am I just upset? Or things like that. But I think that one of the things is to first tell us about your experience and how that experience got you to start X Experts.

Jessica (00:01:26):

So th and I met probably close to 30 years ago. Was it that long ago? Yeah. when we were both in college, even though we didn't go to the same college, because my college boyfriend, who turned out to be my first husband, was TH's best friend from high school. So she had come to our campus. She had another friend at that school as well. She came up to school and for Halloween weekend, and I had heard all about her. He had been talking about his best friend. T.H. his best friend. T.H.

 So she walks into the party that we're, that we're at, and I go running over to her. I'm like so excited to meet her. And I'm like, Oh my God, you're th and she just kind of looks at me and she's like, Where's Darren? And I go over to him afterwards and I'm like, That's your best friend. She's a. She was,

T.H. (00:02:14):

Ok. So three sides to every story,

Jessica (00:02:17):

Cross putting <laugh>.

T.H. (00:02:18):

I never heard about her before. If you guys don't see Jessica know what she looks like, she's like this big. And I, I have one finger up. And so this little thing with huge energy is in my face. You know, we're in college, we're drinking before a party. Like, who are you? You're in my face. I, I don't even know you. Why do you know my name? Where's Darren? Okay. So that was the other side of it, just so I'm not always really a.

Jessica (00:02:45):

So ultimately, once we had all graduated from college, cuz they were a couple of years older, we all were living in New York City, obviously T.H. and Darren were, you know, still best friends. T.H. and I became best friends on our own, our her husband who she ended up marrying and my husband were best friends. Like we got engaged within a month of each other, married within a month of each other, traveled together. Our sons were born a week apart. Like we were living these parallel lives as best friends and, and you know, couple's, partners for many years. And then we both found out within one week of each other, 13 years into our marriages, that both of our husbands were cheating on us and covering for each other. They were going on vacation, they would tell us they were going on guys trips, and they were going and taking their girlfriends away as, as couples while we were home watching the kids.

Jessica (00:03:44):

So that was kind of the impetus for both of us getting divorced at the exact same time. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And like, we realize we were both young. We were the first of any of our friends going through the divorce process. It's an unfortunate fact of life that at a certain age, I would say like late thirties, early forties, people start getting divorced if they'd been married young. We were married really young. But at the time, no, none of our friends were divorced. Neither of us came from divorced parents. But we were going through the process at the exact same time. So we really had each other to lean on. You know, you don't necessarily wanna talk about it with everybody else in your life. People don't necessarily understand, and I don't think people wanna hear the drama. And I always use the analogy of, it's like when you have a brand new baby and people are asking, How's the baby?

Jessica (00:04:36):

And you're, they really just wanna hear you say, the baby's great. But if you have a friend who also has a new baby, then you're like comparing notes. How many ounces did they drink today? How many hours did they sleep last night? How many diapers did you have? That's what we were going through as we were going through our divorces for a while. And we would say to each other at the time, like, we're so lucky that we have this because what would we do? It's so scary and overwhelming. We both had really young kids. My kids were two and four, All three of teachers kids were under eight. And like, what would we have done if we didn't have each other? And we would say, back then, this was 14 years ago, you know, one day we're gonna have to figure out a way to help other people go through this who don't have what we have right now. And that was

Melissa (00:05:27):

Because it's a process. I mean, it takes a long time. There are things so like, okay, you find out that you're gonna get divorced day one, but the next 365 days or 600 days, or for years,

Jessica (00:05:42):

Years, mine was really amicable and ths was very acrimonious and long and drawn out. We started our processes at the same time. Mine ended several years before hers did. But like even with that, like, we could always talk to each other. We knew what I didn't, we weren't in the exact same situation. It may look similar from the outside because of the initial circumstances, but it was totally different. But we always had each other's backs.

Melissa (00:06:08):

Yeah. But in general, the people around you probably were like, Are you still talking about this? Are you, oh, you's, oh, we're still talking about this. And yet it is relevant every day in your life, Right? You know, like, T.H. you had a longer situation. Like Yeah. Tell us a little bit about that.

T.H. (00:06:27):

It was hard. And I did have a lot of support and you also find out who your real friends are. I had a lot of support from strangers, but it was hard to know if they were my friend or they just wanted the gossip because it was gossip worthy, honestly. So it was hard. My dad was there with me every day. Thank God for that. And Jessica, like, we covered each other. What are we doing our first New Year's Eve mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, What are we doing Thanksgiving, Let's arrange our parenting time because we know the guys are gonna want the kids together so that we have the kids together. So we're always covered for things that you might not think about but are really big. Your first Thanksgiving, holy crap. Right? What am I gonna do? How am I gonna make, how am I gonna overcompensate for my kids because their dad's not here? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I mean it. So, so it's a lot. So what's really great about our friendship is that we're really good listeners for each other and for anybody out there, if you have a friend who's going through a divorce, don't say a word.

T.H. (00:07:37):

Just

Jessica (00:07:38):

Don't, don't not bring it up. But t no,

T.H. (00:07:41):

Don't not bring it up. But, but if your, if your friend is looking for a place to go to talk, just listen. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> don't offer an opinion. Certainly don't say what a jerky is or she is, because we obviously know that mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, but we just wanna be heard. And Jessica and I created a safe space for one another to be heard regardless of what it was. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and, you know, the length of it all. I mean, even though mine took four years, three judges, a mediator, every expert in the book, I was dragged through the court system because I was married to a narcissist. And for anybody who is married to a narcissist, you should check out ex experts because we get it. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> and I now handle business with him. But anyway, so we had each other through the process and I also had a really great therapist who helped me start to unravel everything that was being done.

T.H. (00:08:39):

So it was a lot of moving parts. I was thrilled to be out of my divorce when I found out about the affair. That's what set me free. I told her she saved my life that day. Jessica was not, Jessica hadn't grieved yet. I grieved years ago. I was ready to run for the border mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, but I had three kids under eight. Right. What's going on? What do you mean new house? What's happening? Where is, who is he <laugh> and where is he and what is he supposed to be doing here? Like, managing that was really a struggle because I wanted to be free and sing and dance and rejoice. And they ate three kids with like panic attacks and I don't wanna go, or I had a bad time, or what do I do about this? You know, it, it's, it's really hard to be in that situation so long and short we had each other.

Melissa (00:09:30):

Well, and I think that, you know, what resonates with, with me, with both of you is that you had two completely different experiences and you also had, you know, like TH's you would be like, Oh, that's so long. You were probably unhappy. And that's not true. And Jessica, it was so short, you should be happy. But that's not true. But I think if we dial it back a little bit, what a lot of people are at this point where they're like, I'm not happy. You know, the pandemic has kind of made us all realize, you know, mental health is important and we're making decisions that are good for us. Right. But how did, but people out there like, yeah, but I'm, I'm still in this zone of like, I don't know what to do. Like, I don't even know how to make the first move. How did maybe you guys throughout this podcast can kind of help our audience relate to the stages of this beginning process? So how did you first know that your marriage wasn't working and how long was it that you still continued even when you knew something was kind of not right?

T.H. (00:10:39):

So we just had a conversation with one of our ex experts, and it was just a great thought. If you can't sit down and have a conversation with your spouse or your partner about what's troubling you and how you're feeling, and to kind of measure if they're feeling the same way. If I can't say, let's sit down and talk about our relationship right now, then you pretty much have your answer. And I can tell you that I could not do that. We did not communicate. We never fought, but my kids thought we fought all the time because we didn't speak. So silence is also in a kid's mind a fight. We didn't yell. And when the yelling happened, it was like epic. But it was rare. So I, it mine unraveled because of childhood. And there are so many stories like that. I married my mother who loves me, but was highly critical of me my whole life, even today.

T.H. (00:11:49):

So I married somebody who was also highly critical of me. And it was emotional abuse, which I understand now, but at the time I did not. And I had many people saying, hire private detective. T.H. I've seen this before. T.H. I went to a therapist actually who said, You can continue to eat or you can leave. And I probably stayed another two years. So I think it, and I had financial support and I had emotional support. I had everything that you would think you would need. And they're like, What the hell are you doing? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And I could not find my way because it was a slow burn and I was a shell of who I am today and who I was before. It was a slow burn and I just could not find the strength. But I felt it in my gut. I was so unhappy. So I think the minute your, your gut starts not feeling good, or situations start not feeling good, that's your first sign. And if you can't have a conversation, an adult conversation with your spouse about anything, but certainly about your relationship, then I think both of those things are very telling. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>,

Jessica (00:13:04):

I would agree with that. I think that I've been married twice, divorced twice. I think that it wasn't as devastated as I was the first time. I, I feel like T.H. and I have had this conversation a lot. We hadn't, we, we both had our reasons to believe that was happening in our marriage, but it wasn't thrown in our face until it was thrown in our face and before it was thrown in our face. We were just trying to not look at it, you know? And we again, both had really small kids. We both had big jobs. Like I think that sometimes you're, you don't have the strength because you just don't, you're not ready until you're ready. And fortunately for both of us, when it was thrown in our face, we were both ready. So both of us had, you know, things that weren't going well in retrospect, but like, for whatever reason, we weren't ready until that, that day that we each got our own independent, our own independent calls.

Jessica (00:14:08):

And I rem and it wasn't hard for me, despite the how upset I was. It was not hard for me to be like, I'm out. Like there has to be a line somewhere. And I also had, you know, a, a great career and I had a lot of support around me. And I was like, we're done. We're literally done. And in fact, when I told him that, I didn't even, I mean, I knew because I knew cause I'm a woman and you have a woman's intuition, but he had not yet admitted that he'd been having affair. And I said to him, It doesn't even matter anymore. I don't believe what you're saying. I don't trust what you're telling me. And for that we're done. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And so I remember after that for years, thinking to myself, you know, when there was an obvious impetus like infidelity in a marriage, as hard as it is to come to terms with it, it's not that hard for a lot of people to be like, That's the line you, we can't, we're never gonna be able to repair that.

Jessica (00:15:04):

And I would wonder how is it when there's a relationship when someone's not cheating, that you are able to actually be like, this just isn't working anymore. And I have always felt that that is in fact potentially a more challenging situation to be in. Yeah. Yeah. You're with someone for however long you're with them and like now you're just, I don't think I wanna be married to anymore. And that's actually what happened to me in my second marriage. And it was, that was gut wrenching in a lot of ways. He was not the right man for me, Great guy, not the right man for me. And it, that was a much harder decision back and forth for a very long time of like, but do I actually divorce? Like, I don't know, is there a way to work it out? He didn't do anything wrong.

Jessica (00:15:56):

So I feel like for people, I think it really is what th said. Like it's all about your gut. Whether or not there's a reason like cheating or, or if there isn't, if you inherently in your heart of hearts are feeling like you're not happy, you're not happy when you're home with them, you're not happy with who you are. I, i, it, it felt in my second marriage, like I wasn't who I used to be. And I was like, I can't live like this forever. This can't be how I'm gonna feel for the rest of my life. Cuz I know what it's like to feel different and that's what I wanna feel like. And so if you aren't feeling like things are right, then you really need to dig deep and you need to talk to a therapist, talk to someone who can give you the support and the guidance to start that dialogue with your spouse.

Melissa (00:16:47):

Well, and I think that you made a very important point is that everybody has a line and that line is gonna be different for every person in every marriage or situation. Cuz we do see a lot of people stay together and tell the kids go off to college, you know, we do see, oh well, you know, we can just live here as roommates, we can you be in the basement, I'll be in the master. Are you being the guest room? I mean, there's a lot of ways to facilitate just continuing on, but you still will reach that line. Like, I don't want a roommate. Like I don't, I don't want to do this anymore. But then you have to kind of either have the discussion with your spouse or get prepared. And so in some context I think that, you know, you guys didn't have to necessarily have that discussion, but you had to get prepared.

Melissa (00:17:43):

So what did you do after sort of everything hit the fan? Then what? Because I think what people don't understand is that getting divorced is somewhat like a part-time job. You know, like you, you have your life, you have your kids or a full-time. I know I wanted to be nice about it, but you know, what did you guys do? Cuz you get, you get the call, you guys know that this is, I i this is my line. I'm not interested in crossing this line. Then what, you know, because you guys have built resources for women to go directly now to that. But what did you guys start to do at that point?

T.H. (00:18:22):

Well, that's also how X experts started. I was trying to educate myself. I was looking online and I couldn't find anything. I was like, Jessica, there's literally nothing out here. I have to rely on my $500 plus an hour attorney and all of her little peons to gimme information. There's, you know, this is 14 years ago. So now we feel now there's way too much information out there, but there was nothing out there for us. So my reaction was get a lawyer, find a friend, had a lawyer meet a shark. He's a bad man. That's it. That is not the way to do it, by the way, even back then. And certainly so many great resources, including X experts, shameless plug. So that you don't have to do it that way. Knowledge is power. Educate yourself. You have to learn for yourself what you want.

T.H. (00:19:26):

What's doable. I was married to a narcissist, an amic, amicable divorce was not possible. It just wasn't. There's no reasoning with somebody who's clinically diagnosed as with that personality. So I had a different road that I knew I would have to follow. But for Jessica, she was able to sit down at the table with him. And if they didn't sit at the table, they could have certainly explored collaborative and mediation. But educate yourself on your options. Find the money. Do you have access to your finances? I did always have access to the finances and he was air quotes, everybody doing me a favor of taking that on because I had three little kids and I was working. Right. So he wasn't so smart though, because he still charged everything on our cards. And so it was all there. I just never looked until I looked.

T.H. (00:20:23):

So how to prepare for this conversation. What I did when I got the call was I called my brother. And as I said, you know, this ties back to my mother. My parents were in Egypt, so they couldn't have been in a better place for me dealing with this than on the other side of the world so that I could finally think for myself without having other voices in my head. So think clearly about what you need. I needed support, I needed my brother, I needed to know where my kids were and I needed to make sure I had money. Those were my three must have things before I even called him to tell him I knew what was happening and I'm never living with you again. And that was like so great <laugh> to be able to speak up for myself. Like I hadn't done that in so long and all of a sudden I had a voice and I had my brother next to me, so I was gonna be okay and I was gonna be safe.

T.H. (00:21:24):

And then I went to my brother and sister-in-laws with my kids to just kind of let everything kind of absorb as happy as I was. The extent of the lying and the deceit was unbelievable. Four years, four years of, of being absent from a family, being absent from your kids, the lies, all of it. I was like, Oh my God, this is so kind of like unraveling all that. And then I was calling Jessica, I'm like, they weren't in Costa Rica on a boys trip. They were there with their girlfriends at the Ritz Carlton and they weren't in Vegas with whatever they were. So all of the pieces were, were becoming very clear. When you have that much information at once, you do not want to show your cards. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> call. You're concise, This isn't working. We'll regroup when in a week when I have time to let it sink in. And then the next thing you do is you have to tell your kids.

Jessica (00:22:29):

Yeah. Yeah. I I mean what

T.H. (00:22:32):

About you Jessica?

Jessica (00:22:33):

Well, again, like we were both the first time for sure caught off guard. So there was like not that much time to kind of mobilize. I think for me, my immediate thoughts were more like, what do I want this process to look like on the other side? What do I want our relationship to be after the divorce for ourselves, for me, for the kids? And that was really more of what I focused on. I had a career that I knew I could support myself on it. I don't know whether or not there were, I, I definitely left money on the table, but I kind of knew that for me, in order to have the relationship that we have today, I did not wanna go down the road of forensic accountants and things like that. I just, I just wanted to be done.

Jessica (00:23:30):

I I, I'll take my stuff, you take your stuff, you know, and we can, and it can be over. And it was more figuring out like the custody of the kids and things like that, which also really wasn't that challenging. We both live in New York City. We were both staying in the city. I just, I really, for me it was more, I mean, I had gotten my phone call on a Thursday night. I, I had a job that I was working at on Friday. I was starting a brand new job on Monday, the biggest job of my career to date at that time, like running my own show at a, at a national network. And I really like had to focus on work. And I think for me it was a blessing in disguise because I laid in bed and cried for 48 hours that whole weekend.

Jessica (00:24:18):

And I got up Monday morning and I started my new job and I couldn't talk about it with anyone there because I was afraid that if anyone knew what was happening, they'd think that I wasn't like up for the task. And I was completely focused on what I was doing at work all of the hours of the day. And I think that that was kind of how it sort of all sank. And for me, like I didn't have a lot of time to prepare. I was just like, what do I wanna do with all of this? And we, we did deal with it ourselves. And, and it took a long time, not like teachers, but it wasn't like we were in a rush. Like I, I wasn't like we, we were already weren't living together. I had already kicked him out. So I was kind of like, okay, like now let's figure out what we're gonna do and what this is gonna look like.

Jessica (00:25:03):

I would say to anybody who's in a situation, unlike ours, whether they know their spouse is having an affair and they know they want out, or whether they're just feeling unhappy and they're thinking that a divorce is ultimately what they're going to have to do, I think the steps to preparation are make sure you do have access to all of your financials. Make sure you have passwords to all of the accounts. Make sure you know where all of the accounts are. Make sure you can, you know, how much is left on your mortgage or how much you're paying every month in rent. Where is the money coming from? You know, have your accountant's information. You just have to know, you have to have all of your ducks in a row. Because unfortunately th and I here far too often of people having reactionary conversations with their spouses about the fact that they're not happy and they're getting divorced and now they're like, Oh, but by the way, can I get the password to the checking account? And it's like, that. So if you are able to tamper your feelings and your reactions down long enough to make sure that you are prepared financially to just know where everything is, that to me, I think is the best step of preparation.

Melissa (00:26:17):

Well, and I will say, you know, there's a lot of information that is usually in your own house in your files and your records and things like that, that are kind of kept there. That, you know, if you make drastic decisions at the beginning, you may not have access to those types of, you know, like I've seen really narcissistic spouses react and behave almost, you know, like we sometimes call it scorched earth. And so it's sort of like, I will burn this to the ground before I let you have any of it. Yes. If that means paying attorneys or preventing you from having it so that financial knowledge is an important piece. You know, I have some other suggestions that I might say. It's more for an offline conversation <laugh> of, of what to do. Gotta protect you gotta protect yourself and, and you have to know where you're vulnerable and, and to, to make sure. So you kind of have to turn off that emotional brain and say, Okay, you know, I'm gonna be okay. My kids are gonna be okay, but like, do I have access to money to fight this or to survive for the next 60, 90, a hundred days till we figure out even things. Right. But then if you then get prepared and you have this conversation, you know, and you guys, your situations might be a little bit different, but I know you mentor a lot of divorcing couples. Do what

Jessica (00:27:53):

My second one wasn't though. My second one was having to have the discussion.

Melissa (00:27:57):

Yeah. And, and I think you're right that discussion is harder when you don't hate the person and you maybe have just you, but you also don't love the person anymore. So talk to us about how you guys recommend people have discussions with their spouse or how you did it and, you know, how can, cuz it, it, this is the biggest piece of it, kind of that starts the whole waterfall, if you will.

Jessica (00:28:28):

I, I think that we're both huge advocates of therapy and so I would say, I mean, if you are in a marriage with someone that you at least respect, even if you don't feel like you're in love with them anymore, you don't feel like this is gonna work out in the long run. If you're in a marriage with someone that you respect, then I strongly suggest that you go to couples therapy because at the very least you may learn something, whether it's about how to have the conversation in a more productive way or there may actually be obstacles that you can overcome and you may be able to work it out in the long run. We just had a whole conversation with one of our ex experts about how do you know when to mend or to end? So I, I think that couples therapy is crucial and I think that if you having that conversation is really scary.

Jessica (00:29:14):

Like, I ended up having, we, we had had some independent sessions with our therapist without each other in them, and I had said to her like, I need your help because I don't know, I don't know that I like have the courage to really say it out loud even though I knew what was gonna be coming. So I, I think that how you have to say it depending on your circumstances, I wanted it to be a gentle conversation. This, it's not like, like it's not personal, but it's almost not personal. We are not compatible together. We have spoken about the fact that we don't feel like we bring out the best in each other and we've spoken about the fact that we're not, we're neither of us is so happy. So I think that it's time to move on. I, I think that it's not working out, this is not how I wanna feel for the rest of my life.

Jessica (00:30:05):

And I know it's not how you wanna feel for the rest of your life and this isn't what marriage has to be. I think that for so many of us, you get to a point where like everything in your marriage is rote, you know, and you're just used to the routine and it's like, this sucks and this sucks. And you're complaining with your friends about like, she sucks and he sucks. And, and it's everybody's in the same boat. So you kind of are like, I think this is what marriage is all about. At a certain point. I don't believe that that's true. I think that that marriage becomes that when you're not communicating with each other and it becomes that if you've grown apart. But if you really, I just couldn't picture, you have to sit down and think like, can I picture my life for the next 40 years, every day like this?

Jessica (00:30:44):

And I think that that conversation has to be very delicate. And I think you have to be really sensitive to the words that you use and the way that you phrase things. Especially if you think you wanna try to proceed with some kind of an amicable divorce, whether you think you wanna mediate, if you think you wanna have a collaborative divorce, you have to be really conscious of the way that you broach that conversation. I did it in the therapist's office with the three of us. I felt like that was a safe space and that we would both feel more free to be able to express ourselves.

T.H. (00:31:18):

I, I would just say one other thing, I just know difficult conversations that I've had to have with him as a difficult person. And I would write it down. I'd literally write a script. It's almost like a letter to him. And then I would let it sit and get rid of the stuff that I know is not gonna be productive. It just made me feel better to put it down. And I honestly, my therapist made me practice reading it because when you're on, when you're, first of all, when you're with a difficult person being in their presence, even if nothing's being said is enough to make you crawl outta your own skin. So I was fine for the four years he wasn't around because he wasn't around mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, but then tapped to have this conversation. If it were to have gone down differently, I would've had to write, I would've had to rehearse and I probably would've looked down at my paper the entire time.

T.H. (00:32:13):

But at least you're getting the words out that are most important to you. You cannot leave it to, I'm gonna wing it. You have to really think it through. And like Jessica was saying, even if it's not an amicable divorce and you're divorcing a difficult person, there are ways that you need to say things mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, because you need to still make them feel a little like a hero even though they're so not, so you make it about the relationship, not a matter of fault, even though in their head their thinking it's totally her fault.

Melissa (00:32:47):

Mm-Hmm.

T.H. (00:32:47):

<Affirmative> you. So that's what I would say be prepared for any difficult conversation. Whether it's saying you want a divorce, whether it's talking about stuff with the kids, whatever it is, the hardest thing is to do it in person. So if you can do it with a therapist or you can do it with your brother there or whatever the dog, like support animals are good at this time.

Melissa (00:33:12):

Yeah.

T.H. (00:33:13):

Prepare yourself. It's really hard. It's

Melissa (00:33:16):

Really that I love both of those and I think that they give very good perspectives. Even in most towns. I do a lot of divorce obviously, but we even have therapists and every around the country, you even have therapists that are not just couples therapists to keep you together, but they actually are kind of therapists to help you through the divorcing process. Even with you, if you have kids, you know, we have some specialists in town that are really, they're not really there to keep you together and they're not there to take you apart. They're there to say, Okay, if this is the process you're gonna go about, let us support you individually and as a couple, and these are volatile. One thing that I know from doing a lot of mediation is that people will not react like crazy, crazy lose their if there's an audience right now, if it's just you two and you have a, a propensity to everything escalates, you're never gonna, you're not gonna be in a safe, like you said, a safe space, a safe protected space.

Melissa (00:34:26):

But having that audience at least allows that conversation to happen initially that maybe won't have a lot of hurt come out. Right. And, and, and venom, if you will, right. In that, in that space. So those were amazing. And with, with yours, with th with saying, you do have to practice with a narcissist because a narcissist is gonna find every hole in your theory, in your position in what you say, and they're gonna drill it home to you. And so you really do have to have it, you know, like, this is how I feel, regardless of your gas lighting, regardless of you, if you say that this is not how I feel, never say

T.H. (00:35:08):

That.

Melissa (00:35:09):

Huh?

T.H. (00:35:10):

<Laugh> you would never say regardless of your gas lighting <laugh>, Right? Regardless of you being a complete blah blah, blah. No, you would never say that. But I, I will say also one other thing I wanna say. Addressing what we're saying before, if you are in, if your safety is at all compromised or the safety, if your kids are at all compromised, there's no conversation. You go to a shelter, you go to the police, you go to a family, you go somewhere safe and you get out and there's no anything else. So I just wanna make sure that we, we address that part of it. The other thing is venom will be spewed. It will be like, I, I didn't know when, like maybe it was the fifth time he told me that this was actually all my fault, that I just like, like the alien came out from my innards and just like blew up in the room.

T.H. (00:36:00):

And I'd never even yelled like that before. I was like, I don't know what's happening to me. I'm like, I'm like a super villain right now and I'm gonna come and eat your head. Like, but that's what I did and it felt great after. So not every conversation is gonna be, you know, like planned and everything and it's okay to spew venom, but just make sure you're like outside and not at, not at your spouse's house and he or she is not inside of your house. Like pick a neutral space where you can both kind of go to your own corners. Like you're not stuck with them.

Melissa (00:36:32):

And I think the one of the bigger takeaways is that, you know, if this, these situations happen and you are caught off guard, you do need to take some time to step back and identify your options and identify your safety needs, identify your financial needs. And that reacting sometimes is going to cut off your capability to assess those pieces. You know, cuz now somebody's throwing your stuff out of the door, pushing you out. I mean you don't have any control at that point at the beginning. You have control over the information cuz you haven't had that conversation yet. Right. now if, and, and I think that that is helpful. I think a couple of the other things that we've kind of talked about throughout this, but you know, in, in making all of these mistakes that you probably made, having it be the first time that you ever got divorced and you didn't really know how to do it anyway, what were some of the biggest lessons that you look back and say, you know, that was, that was important for me to understand through this process. You know, not like silver lining, but it can be silver linings, but just things that you would, may have learned from this process. You wanna go Jessica?

Jessica (00:37:57):

I sure. I mean, you know, we, we talk about these things all the time. What I wish I knew, I I will say I, it's sad that I had to get divorced to twice, but I'm glad that I had the inner strength and courage to know that that wasn't the life that I wanted to lead with those people for different reasons and that I was capable of moving forward in a positive way, which is really important for me and my personality and how I live my life. I don't know that I would've done much differently because I feel like sometimes I think, okay, yes, I left money on the table, it'd be really nice if I had X, Y, or Z. But at the same time I kind of feel like, but that would've made the divorces themselves very different and I wouldn't have the relationships that I have today.

Jessica (00:38:47):

And to me the relationships were more valuable than like a little bit of extra money in the end. So leaving both marriages and not taking anything, I don't know <laugh>, I don't know that I would do that differently today. I did the exact same thing the second time that I did the first time. I, I, I didn't take anything and I was just like, you do you and I'll do me and we'll at least be able to stay friends. So I think that what I learned from my first one was really kind of what I did in my second one, which I am glad about for me, I think it worked for me. I think that t has different lessons because her process was totally different.

T.H. (00:39:28):

Well I I wanna say first of all, what I wish I knew overall being in this type of relationship is that I was gonna be okay. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, you're gonna be okay and your kids are gonna be okay. I don't know what okay looks like, but you're going to be there. And I wish I had trusted my gut cuz it was literally making me sick. And we speak to many experts and many people who have been through divorce who, who literally have created illnesses for themselves because of the angst of this type of, of a marriage and relationship. Emotional abuse, financial abuse, all of it, or some of it or none of it. Keeping stuff locked inside. You only hurt yourself. You're not hurting your spouse and you're also indirectly hurting your kids because you just can't be your best self. So I would, I would say that for sure you are going to be okay.

T.H. (00:40:28):

As far as the process. Because I did have, I, it's like, you know, when you're the only one building a house in the street, everybody's working at your house. Right? Everybody's building your house. Oh, I can't get the plumber for two months. Yeah. Cuz they're at your house. That was my divorce. Everybody was at my divorce. I knew everybody. I was whatever. Not a great place to be. What I, And when you are divorcing a difficult person, a narcissist in particular doesn't really matter what you want in your divorce. Doesn't matter that I wanted to go mediate, it doesn't really matter anything I said, I was dragged along like a puppy dog on a leash. It didn't really matter. What would've been good, which we've learned through our divorce, et cetera, podcast interviews with people is I hired a bulldog. He hired a bulldog and he wasn't negotiable.

T.H. (00:41:23):

I basically had three people against me, Not one. I also would have challenged my lawyer more, I trusted her. But both my dad and I were like, is this really necessary? Yes, it's necessary. Okay. All right. It's necessary. Okay. Okay. Meanwhile, you could fire your lawyer. It's pain in the. You have to start all over again. But if you are not resonating well with your lawyer, move on. It's your life, your money, your choices. In the end, my actual settlement was good in terms of money and support and everything, which I did take happily and willingly and not shamefully at all. It was

Melissa (00:42:08):

Not insinuating there's anything shameful

T.H. (00:42:10):

With anyone. No, I know you, I know you're, but I just want all the rest of us to know like it's okay.

Melissa (00:42:16):

Yes. It's

T.H. (00:42:17):

More than okay child support and alimony and all the things that you're entitled to and if circumstances are such that you don't need it and that's not gonna work for your negotiation, totally fine. I just want them to know it's, it's also fine to, to take it. But I would have created a settlement agreement early on. I wouldn't have taken him filing for divorce as a reason to end a meeting when all the lawyers are there. She goes, he filed meetings over and we left. We're like, Oh my God, he filed, how could he file? He's the bad guy I should have filed. And that's what I got caught up in. Instead of saying, we're all here, let's hash out what we can hash out. You know, I deposed like 15 people, you know how much money that is and lawyers fees. And if I had to hire Melissa, like, and, and anybody, all these experts like Melissa would've been part of my arsenal.

Melissa (00:43:14):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

T.H. (00:43:15):

Right? And, and those are the situations that I knew didn't feel right and I was like, Right, well the lawyer said so mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, okay, but what do you say your voice matters. You need to be represented in the way that works for you. So in the end, it worked for me for the agreement for my kids' stability for my future, but the angst didn't have to be magnified to the level that it was. There would still be angst, but not at that level.

Melissa (00:43:43):

Yeah. And I think we talk a lot about that on our end about negotiation strategies and you know, at what pivot points. But you know, you are talking about litigation and you are talking, a lot of times we're defaulting to the attorneys and like, well, you know, this process, but they have been in this process and they fight to the death until the day and it doesn't always resonate with the person. And then it also changes like there are times in a divorce where you may not be able to talk and then there are times of opportunity when you can talk mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and the attorneys or somebody could prevent that. So, so you do have to kind of advocate for yourself even in the process. And I think think that's hard, which means maybe getting a a a part of your team is on the outside and whether that be a therapist absolutely another divorce professional or somebody that's like that doesn't like what you're saying doesn't make a lot of sense.

Melissa (00:44:50):

Yeah. And, and I think that that's very helpful now based on some of these lessons you know, you basically created this website and these resources and was that just the mtu, like, we went through this and we had to create our own way and I don't want other people to do it. Or was it even like you felt called, you know, like what, because you could have easily both gotten divorced and just been like, you know what? I don't ever wanna talk, you know, talk about that ever again. People ask me all the time like, why do you continue to do divorce? Isn't it sad and frustrating and horrible? And I was like, Yeah, it is horrible. But fundamentally we should have a choice. Like we were told a long time ago that we marry one person and we have to do it for the rest of our lives.

Melissa (00:45:43):

I don't believe that's true. I believe you have a choice of who you're going to walk this path with and it could change and you as a sovereign person should be able to make that decision. So, but what, what kind of create? And so that's why I do the space and I, I go in there to help people financially know the truth. Right? Right. But you guys are kind of doing different things, which is here's the stuff, here's, here's the people. Cuz it's not just like, oh, here's a resource you guys are actively interviewing, showcasing the people that can help you get through this process. Right. So talk to us some more about these lessons and how they kind of created a business for you.

T.H. (00:46:28):

We, we, this was mission based because we couldn't, we, we couldn't be educated and I really did rely on my lawyer to educate me, which is why I think I got so entangled with her. Because if she's not gonna tell me, who's gonna tell me, who's gonna tell us the right thing to do and, and you know, are we gonna hurt ourselves? Am I gonna, is this gonna like what's gonna happen? So knowledge is power everybody. It just is. What I would've loved to rewrite was interview knowing that, okay, I'm married to a difficult person. Where do I go? Who do I speak with? What kind of questions should I ask? Oh, I should interview multiple people. Oh, there are multiple ways to get a divorce and wait what about paying for it? How am I gonna do that? Like, really take time to discover and teach yourself.

T.H. (00:47:24):

So we didn't have that knowledge, but you can, And we created Xpert as an aggregated information platform for everything divorce. You're thinking about it, you're in it, you're out. And don't take being out for granted because guess what? Your team's gone now. They're not on the payroll. You're gonna pull up your big girl or your big boy pants and you're gonna go out in the world now with nothing that you learned, right? Cause you're not learning through your divorce, you're getting through your divorce. Right? We are teaching you through your divorce so you can take the tools and knowledge and experience and create the best outcome for you. Your outcome's gonna be different than someone else's. I am in a serious relationship now and I didn't plan, I wasn't like coming outta my divorce being like, I really need to find a serious relationship but be because of my knowledge and growth and support with friendship and all of that and becoming financially savvy.

T.H. (00:48:31):

You become one with yourself and then people appear in your life, whether it's a partner or a new best friend or business opportunity. So Jessica, really, the two of us, like really have been walking along this journey together in different shoes but still together. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> and as different as our, you know, thoughts are on some things and our personal experiences are, the feelings are what unite us. So regardless of you being a man or a woman or no matter how you identify, we get the feelings and you're not alone and you don't need to be fixed. There's nothing wrong with you. You are not crazy. Those are all the myths that we wanna bust. Divorce is not a shameful thing. Let's normalize it, let's talk about it. So we created this platform with a bunch of amazing hired professionals like Melissa in law, in finance, in dating, in styling, in nutrition, in kids, in therapy, you name it. And if we don't have it, we'll get it

Jessica (00:49:42):

<Laugh>. So

T.H. (00:49:42):

You can come to X experts first and say, Okay, where, where do I begin? Oh this, I didn't know this. I didn't know that. You don't have to go to a million websites. We have it all and we've given you access to these exceptional people all across the world to teach you. So you can go into a lawyer and say, These are my questions for you. Okay. And, and take on that position of power and confidence that everybody can do. So that's the purpose.

Jessica (00:50:18):

I I also just wanna add, I feel like we're, it's important for people to know we're not advocating for divorce at all. All we're saying is that if that's the road you're going down, it's better to have the information that you need and you don't know what you don't know because you haven't been through it before in most cases. But we know because we have been through it before and we can give you the questions that you should ask a lawyer. How do you know if it's the right lawyer for you? Here's how, ask them these questions. How do I know if I need a forensic accountant? Here's how, listen to this episode of the divorce et cetera podcast. How am I gonna be able to co-parent with my ex? Here's how like we know those things cause we're so far ahead of it. And with all the things that we didn't know back then that we've learned, now we're putting that out on, you know, a silver platter and a one stop platform with all of the things divided into all the categories that go along with divorce.

Melissa (00:51:17):

Well, and the, and the fact of the matter is, if you don't have a plan and you don't have a strategy and you don't, and and I like to say, if you don't keep the end in mind about how you're gonna progress, you know, then you are just like, you even said you're just getting through this. But the, but the problem is you're relying upon all of these people to know what to do. And that is kind like the things that we are doing in our space of mediating valuations or, or really complex financial matters. Really. Nobody said anybody could do that. Like, oh, how could you do that? And it was like, because it was necessary, because it's needed because people are tired of spending hundreds of thousands of dollars getting divorced. But you can't just assume that, oh, somebody who has done this for so long has all the answers.

Melissa (00:52:14):

You have a unique experience and situation and you need to find the right players that are for that situation. But if you don't educate yourself, you're just gonna be like, well I guess what they said was right. And what if it's not right? What if it is old knowledge? What if it they are thinking archaically, you know, because a lot of people are, they're just like doing the work. Oh, we're gonna fight till we get to court. No, there's ways to back that out and to have a more amicable process, but you don't know about it unless you do the research and unless you educate yourself. And so just hoping you hire somebody and they take it from there, you're going to come out, it's gonna be more expensive. You're probably not gonna get what you want. And you're gonna look back at the end and be like, Why did I listen to all these people? Right? So I, and and vetting people is a big deal. Like if you sat down and met somebody and they don't resonate with you in some capacity or they act, it's actually difficult to be around them. You are gonna be with these people for a while.

Jessica (00:53:25):

I always say like you, the people that you are working with during your divorce, I mean that's a really, those are intimate relationships. It's like with your therapist. I mean these are people that you are spilling your guts to about all of the dirty laundry that you have gone, <laugh> that you have from your marriage. You have to be comfortable with these people. So we've vetted them for you. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, that's what X experts is about. We vetted them for you. We have the information. It's either in the podcast, well I shouldn't say either. It's both in the podcast and online. On the website and it's all right there. Mm-Hmm.

T.H. (00:53:59):

<Affirmative>. And, and we've also started doing events and we bring three ex experts in. We've done ones about what kind of divorce is right for me? How am I gonna pay for my divorce to date or not to date divorcing a narcissist, Family matters and men's point of view on divorce because we want a lot of voices here, but everybody who we feature, we have vetted and we know is an exceptional person for you to learn from. Not everybody is a right match for everybody, but there are lessons to be learned. So as you go through this process, keep your eyes open for good lessons and bad lessons so that you don't repeat them or you're, you'll do it differently next time. There's a lesson in every experience and every relationship that you embark on. So be present, take notes, and you're in charge of your own life. We're just helping you get there.

Melissa (00:54:58):

Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And I think that you know, kind of a final thing and, and you know, it's a little bit about advice, but it's also about, you know, any additional conversations that are difficult to have. Like what, what do you think is the one the biggest thing that you would do different or the biggest thing that, in addition to everything that we said, cuz the advice today really is very helpful for somebody who's just sitting back and been like, I'm unhappy and I think I might wanna make a different decision. It doesn't mean that divorce is the option. It means that you need to find happy and if that means therapist or, or whatever fixing the divorce or getting out of it, you should have that. But is there any kind of parting advice that you would have that somebody, somebody's in the process right now and I'm frustrated and I'm just like, I don't know if I made the right decisions. I don't know if I hire the right people. Like what advice would you give them?

Jessica (00:56:01):

I would say two quick things. One is if you are in the midst of the process and you are actually not sure if the team that you have around you, the lawyer that you've hired, the people that you're working with, if you're not sure if they're the right fit for you, honestly I think I would suggest getting a divorce coach, which is something that wasn't really around when Teach and I were getting divorced. And I think a lot of people might kind of, of like haha divorce coach. But the truth is that's an outside perspective of someone who has expertise in the area. You can message us and do a private session with us, but like, you have to feel comfortable with all of the people on your team going into a room that you are not in and having a discussion on behalf of you and walking out with a result that you'd be happy with.

Jessica (00:56:50):

If you are not feeling comfortable putting your entire life into those people's hands, then you need new people. So I think the first thing is, if you really aren't sure about like the people around you, then maybe get in an outside person that you can consult with. Divorce mentors, you know, whatever it is. But the other thing that I would say, honestly, like on a personal level is everybody's different. But I'm a person who has a lot of trouble asking for help and I have a per, I'm a person who I just wanna be able to handle things on my own. And both times I found myself really withdrawing from like my close friends, my close, you know, my family, my close circle. And I learned after the first one that during the second one, I really needed to be proactive about maintaining all of my close relationships with all of my women friends.

Jessica (00:57:43):

Because people will say things to you like, I'm always there for you, but like, you are going to have to, you know, make the initiative to make plans and like let people know that you can still go out, that you still wanna meet for a cocktail, that you still wanna go out for dinner or for lunch. Divorce is a lonely place to be. And if you aren't being proactive in your life about being with the people that you love and that make you happy and bring you joy, then you can find out the process can take a long time. You may find out later, like now those people that aren't necessarily around in the way that you would've wanted them to be. So I think as hard as it may be, like try at least once a week to get together with someone, you know, one of your friends or or someone in your family to like be able to have those moments.

Melissa (00:58:32):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Well, and a divorce coach, I, I gotta be honest with you, like one hour with me or you or you or anybody who is in the field of divorce for a long time is going to be worth its weight in gold. Yeah. Because you don't know what you don't know. And if you're listening to your friends and you're like, Oh, I got divorced and I got screwed, I got divorced and I got everything. All of those are, are, are like story book romances that have nothing to do with your case, like, and have no impact. Nobody cares what Sally down the street got in your divorce. It has no bearing on your divorce. But a coach or a therapist who is knowledgeable about it, I think, think could answer some questions, direct you in the right place. And it is imperative. You cannot allow somebody to drive this process for you. Right? You have to get in the driver's seat.

Jessica (00:59:35):

There are circumstances where they will be driving the process for you. And you have to the ground, you have people that they're the ones doing it into the ground. <Laugh>.

T.H. (00:59:46):

I would say, listen, divorce is not your whole life.

T.H. (00:59:53):

And as contentious as and, and like all consuming that mine was not even the emotional side, but then three kids and all the paperwork I had to print out and all the stuff I had to go find and, and then I had to bring boxes to lawyers. And by the way, I had to work. Like, I, I would say the number one thing is find joy in your day. Every single day I find joy by working out and like totally getting lost in music. I also find joy of going to the cabinet, picking one of my like 50 tea mugs with a saying that resonates for me that day. Picking out my flavor. Like this is my morning ritual. Yes, Joy for me is taking my dog for a walk and seeing the most gorgeous flower that I have to take a picture of and then I have to blow it up into a canvas that goes in my gym so that I'm bringing my outside in.

T.H. (01:00:55):

Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. So no matter what it is, taking a bath, going for a walk, reading a book, listening to like a, a spy podcast or binging on whatever, as long as it's healthy, do it every single day. You really need to take care of yourself. And as far as being a parent going through this, we are superheroes. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, because you have to be present with your kids. They are not going through the legal stuff. They are not making copies of stuff. They're going to school, they're having trouble with their friends or they're having a great day and they're coming home and they wanna tell mom and dad about it. And you need to be there with them, not just for them, but you're gonna be upset if you miss it. Don't miss out on your life because you are getting a divorce. Right.

Melissa (01:01:49):

Live

T.H. (01:01:49):

Your life, find your joy and be present for the things that really matter. Shut off the phone, turn off the tv, sit with your kid even if you don't know everyday math and just pretend mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and be there with them. So those are my two big things.

Melissa (01:02:07):

Well, and I think I, I appreciate all the information. I do have one more question and then we'll definitely go because it's something that I've been very passionate about recently, which is when this divorce is over, there is a healing process that has to take place. Divorce has components of trauma or you could even say the relationship could have had components of trauma and you have to kind of unwind all of that. Do you guys have any like one thing that helped you heal or with self care or anything like that that you thought, you know, that really kind of helped me to process after? Because I tell people the divorce is the first process, but the after the divorce about finding yourself and being whole again and all of that is the next process. Do you, you know, was there a healing modality that really helped you?

T.H. (01:03:03):

It's a journey and we're gonna say at ad nauseum, get a really great therapist. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, my therapist helped me undo bad patterns from my mother, from my husband, even like some of my kids were, you know, copying the behavior that I was allowing happened. So I just wanna say a few things. Like we all say divorce, right? My separation was four years. My divorce is to eternity, like forever and always, but the separation, you can start healing on day one. You don't have to wait for this to be over. You start day one, which is what I did. And you keep your ears open and you continue to trust your gut and learn. And that's how we have both grown in different ways. The ways that we needed to grow. I needed to find my voice. I needed to know that I was perfect the way that I am.

T.H. (01:04:02):

Those words don't like who the hell's telling me that. And why am I listening? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and all of what, all the, whatever damage was caused through the marriage and whatever, that's a long time of damage to healing time. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, like it's not an overnight thing. Take yourself seriously, take responsibility for your marriage. I allowed someone to treat me like for at least five years. That was my responsibility in that marriage. Is he not the good guy for me? No, definitely not a good guy, but I allowed it to happen. I wasn't handcuffed to the house. And so once you start taking responsibility, forgive yourself, you're doing the best job you can. All of this can come through with working with us, but also really with a therapist works with you differently cuz they go back into your past. And that's the difference between a therapist and us as mentors or coaches or anybody else. Like, you gotta dig deep and you have to be ready to face the music, but you feel so much lighter when you do.

Melissa (01:05:12):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. I love it. Yeah. I love it. Well, and I think that, you know, I think that this is some of the ways that people can contact you and the ex experts.com and I think you're right. And I think that in this process there's a balance of finding joy of self care, of working through the divorce, of making your kids okay and yourself. Okay. And having a support system is necessary. And not using the people on your team to be all of your support. Not having your attorney also be your therapist, not have, you know, like you really have to have a separation of some of those pieces because, you know, sometimes you might wanna complain about your team too. And so you need that to, you know, it's, it's a frustrating thing. So the other thing that we have here is, let's see your social platform.

Melissa (01:06:10):

So at the ex experts and then your podcast is divorce, et cetera. So, you know, they have an unlimited amount of information and resources and they are more than willing to talk to you and to have that first, and again, even if it's just a first meeting or an hour or a few hours, I think it will take you so far in the process to be more prepared and you can make decisions that are maybe just not good for your friends, but are good for you. So I thank you guys so much. This is a great topic and I'm sure we'll have you back because I think the healing during it is kind of an interesting thing that we could discuss. So Absolutely. You know, how do you become whole again? When we were told our whole lives to be part of a couple, like Right. Maybe that's not the truth. That's a whole nother conversation. Right, right. All right, well, don't believe everything

Speaker 4 (01:07:08):

That you're told.

Melissa (01:07:10):

There you go. There you go. Well, thank you Jessica and T.H. we will, we will be talking to you again. Thanks Melissa.